Agile in Marketing (Sep 15, 2020)

Transcript

Good morning, everyone. Thanks for coming and attending our virtual user group, Agile Marketing. Really excited about that today. Quick introduction for myself. I’m Kate McGinnis. I’m located in Rochester, New York, which is near Toronto. I’m not sure if any of my Canadian fellows are joining today, but I have a lot of Canadian customers. So if you’re here today, hello. We’re going to be recording this session. The session recording will be emailed to you, and it’s also going to be in Workfront 1 in the community so we can continue on the conversations. So Kristin will share that with you at the end. You’re probably familiar with Zoom, but I want to go over a few things with you. The join audio and start video buttons will be on the lower left hand side. You are joining on mute. However, we’re going to be going into a couple breakout rooms. That’s when we want you to come off of mute and actively participate. Definitely turn your video on. If you want to keep it off for now, that’s fine. But again, when we go in the breakout rooms, we definitely love to meet you. I do realize sometimes with internet connections, video might not be possible. If you’d like to see the participants, you can use the participants icon and the chat icon. And we’re definitely going to be using the chat, so I would recommend opening that up. If you want to see everyone in a gallery view, you can hit the gallery button. If you want to just see me, speaker view. I highly suggest the gallery view. Plus, it’s always nice to see who else is on the call. So I’d like to meet all of you. Typically we go around the room, but since we’re virtual, if you can put in the chat, we already have your name, your company, role, your location, and what do you hope to take away from today? And then what hobby or activity did you recently take up this year? I think with all the changes, there might have been something new that you’ve been working on. So now I’m just staring at the chat waiting for you guys to start typing. Hi Dave, seed company Fort Worth, Texas. Hello. And Hannah from Alvalara, project manager, work front administration, and acoustic guitar. Seriously? That’s huge. That’s a big thing to start taking up. I’m kind of jealous. And Deborah, amping up old ones. I mean, yeah, I’m digging in the closet. I’m starting jewelry making again, which I used to do before. And now I have a lot more time. Let’s see here. Elizabeth, resource manager with Purple in Salt Lake City. Oh, you’re near, you’re close to our headquarters in Lehigh. I’m not sure if you’ve ever driven down. I think it’s only about 35 minutes or so. And Tracy, she’s one of my coworkers. She’s in Utah, and she’s actually using the appliances in my kitchen. Congratulations. I’m very excited for you on that one. And Amanda from Thermo Fisher. Thanks for joining. Manager of visual design and brand in Pittsburgh, PA. We’re close by. We’re about four and a half hours. And if you’re a Steelers fan, congratulations on the game yesterday. That was a great game. So for our agenda, welcome. We’re going to be talking with Melissa Telka and Melissa Pickering. They both work at Workfront. Melissa Telka is a studio manager, and Melissa Pickering is a principal product manager. So they’re going to be talking with us for about 20 minutes today. And then we’re going to have two breakout rooms. So we’ll spend 20 minutes in each. After one breakout room is over, we’re going to jumble everyone up and start a new breakout room. So we can kind of shuffle everyone around and everyone gets a chance to meet each other. Then we’ll have wrap up next steps, be able to point you to Workfront 1 in the community and where we can continue the conversations.

So right now, I will turn it over to both Melissa’s. And I’ll stop sharing so they can share.

Great. Thank you. Oh, I love it when it goes on gallery view. Excuse me, my throat is a little, you might hear me clear my throat a few times. I’ve actually been visiting my mom in Oregon and have been actually stuck here. I should be in my office, but you’re seeing my mom’s amazing little tiny home on the Oregon coast. Hopefully trying to get out of, hopefully I’ll be able to fly out today and go home. So I want to thank you guys all for joining. I just wanted to go for just a few minutes and just talk about Agile and Agile marketing because it is so different. And I really learned this when I started getting my certifications in Agile, became a certified Scrum Master and advanced certified Scrum Master. And I was like, but I’m in marketing and so much of this like just doesn’t work and it’s different. And so that’s why I want to just take you through this, what the trends are, what the trends are, I want to just take you through this, what the trends are. We’ll go really fast through this. And again, you’ll get a copy of this. So you’ll have this. But I kind of fly through it. And then once we’re, and then Melissa Pickering is going to join me in a little bit of a discussion more about business agility and making those connection points. And then I’ll kind of finish out about what I do at Workprint. So, you know, I’m on the account side, I’m working with all of my stakeholders. But at the end of the day, I’m also I am the project manager managing all of the projects coming through. I’m traffic manager, I wear so many different hats. And I do operate in a very modified hybrid, my kind of way, agile fashion. And that’s what we get to do. It’s pretty great. So let’s just run through this. Again, agile, it’s a set of principles. It’s a mentality, a methodology, it’s a way of thinking. When you go agile, you’re changing the way you work.

So let’s talk about these guiding principles. You know, the guiding principles were developed. And then in 2012, they marketing professionals said, Hey, we want to use these guiding principles and make it work for the work that we do. So let’s talk about this, we value individuals and interactions over processes and tools. Now, everything on the right is so important. It’s not that we don’t value those things, but we really emphasize things on the left. And that is such an important distinction of what agile does. So again, individuals interactions over processes and tools responding, we value responding to change over following a plan, many small experiments over a few large bets, testing and data over opinions and conventions, I’m over people saying, Well, that’s how we’ve always done it. I want to use testing, I want to use data to figure out like what is working, and what’s working for my team. And then we also like want to test everything we’re doing in marketing, right? So all that information, so that we’re doing the right work at the right time. Internet customer tribes over impersonal mass markets and engagement and transparency over official posturing. So those are the guiding principles that the marketing world really uses to guide through agile.

Apologize my oh, now it’s stuck and then it’s not stuck. Apologies about that. So why are marketers embracing agile? I mean, the trends have just been going and you can just see that it’s such a popular topic and really it’s surpassing agile itself is surpassing project management in terms of search. So this is a really interesting, we know we all know that it’s super important that we need to understand what it means. And why marketers we have less time to get our work done. If you’re in marketing, if you’re an agency world, what I mean, we know, and we’re only 19% of people are spending their time on their primary job. And 31% of marketers are saying that creativity is their biggest skill, but they need time to be able to bring it to their projects. So those numbers really hurt knowing that we are not spending the time we need on our jobs. And there’s more work to do than ever can be done. So 60% of workers are either completely overwhelmed or are barely hitting their deadline. So we know that marketing is complex, that campaigns and projects can span years. Integrated marketing requires so much coordination across so many different channels. And it’s just such a huge effort to launch campaigns to market. So, and then buyer behaviors and needs change faster than we can even keep up. So when we look at agile, when we look at going agile, we look at the different ways of doing that and breaking up the work. It can really change, just make sure that you’re getting work out faster. You’re responding to those needs by, from your customers. And then at the same time, you’re not, you’re not waiting until, you know, you’re, you’re not waiting until everything’s done and then everything has changed. So again, the current environment is accelerating change even faster than before. So this was done actually by agile Sherpas out of Colorado, and they did a study recently. So January, 2020, 42% of traditional marketers were already planning on adapting agile within a year. April, 2020, four months later, because of market changes due to the pandemic, 56% of marketers say that their, the biggest challenges is managing priorities and rapidly shifting plans. And again, looking at agile. So you’re, when we know that because of this pandemic, it’s more important than ever that we can adapt to change fast. And agile just produces real results. So this again, is another study with agile Sherpas. And it’s, you can just see the percentages and how high they are that you’re really able to see more productive teams and higher quality of work and visibility into project status, improve team morale, which to me, that’s such an important thing. Great, that we’re getting work done, but is my team happy? Is the team I’m working with satisfied in the work that they’re doing? And we’re having those conversations. So again, these numbers kind of stay the same thing, faster time to get things released time as money. We all know that agile methodologies, they structure project move projects from ideation to delivery faster. And this one is adapt and respond faster. So agile helps to switch gears quickly and more effectively. And 51% of marketing teams can adapt and respond faster and from agile Sherpas, 93% of agile CMOs. So they can switch gears more quickly and more effectively. That’s huge. Like, that’s such a big, that’s a big number. And then that productivity that we’ve kind of talked about, your team’s able to, with the right visibility, you’re able to be more productive. And then staying prioritized. We now know that that is a challenge is staying, what do I do next? What’s the most important footwork for me to work on? So it changed how your team works and thinks about work. So a lot of marketing teams a lot are still using that traditional waterfall project planning, plan, produce, follow us, review. And we know how long that can take, especially in a really big complex integrated campaign. And the two big problems is that rigid planning and those rigid timelines. And so when you apply one or more of agile friendly work management frameworks, Scrum or Kanban or a mix of them, you’re able to actually take chunk out the work, make it into little bite-sized pieces and start seeing things getting done quicker.

So most use a mixed methodology at first. I know I still do. I actually use mixed from waterfall and with agile, with Scrum and with Kanban. And I’ve got it all mixed up and it works. And I love it. So to me, it’s doing versus being agile. So it’s about really focusing, and so not just, so you’re doing those hard deadlines, but you’re focused on iterations. Those big projects campaigns, you’re focusing on the small iterations and minimum vital product. Like what is it that we can get done to get out the door, make an impact and then adapt and iterate. Keeping the status quo, continuous improvement, rigid assignments, and allowing teams to self-organize and self-select. Now I know that cannot always happen. I work with designers and copywriters. I cannot tell a copywriter, okay, why don’t you go ahead and just go jump in and design that, you know, that ad. That’s not going to happen. So it just really depends on the makeup of your team and you have to make it work for you. So ways to get started. Again, change how you work to be more agile. I just wanted to just introduce that whole build your backlog. And I really want Melissa Pickering to jump in here and talk about changing the way and how you adapt your mind to being more agile. How businesses can try out Kanban or start sprinting and then that continuing measuring, iterating, and planning. Melissa, do you want to jump in? Yeah, thanks. Thanks, Melissa.

You have two Melissa’s here and we’re just interchangeable. So thanks. Glad to see everybody. I did see that there was a question a couple minutes back and so we’ll get to that answer. So the thing that I want to bring to the conversation is this concept of business agility. So business agility has also been growing in the market. And what that means is that organizations are realizing that they need to not only be more responsive and fail faster and do smaller iterations at the team level, but they also need to do it at the organizational level. So they need to understand what is their organizational capacity and break up these large multi-year initiatives into things that fit into smaller time boxes and get value out to customers more quickly. So marketing teams may also be influenced by the rest of the organization adopting agile at a larger scale. And so that when we’re doing product development or we’re getting out these big initiatives, we actually want to work with marketers earlier in the process and have them be part of this smaller iteration feedback cycle. So and I can talk about this either now or in the breakout sessions, but I do have a little bit of experience also with marketing teams implementing agile in a larger organization and in a larger context. So do you want me to talk about that now or? Let me introduce kind of how I jump into agile and I would love to hear your take on like what you’ve done in the past. So again, I apologize my screen is really lagging. So if it goes back and forth, it’s just a little bit of a I am kind of in the forest, which is great. I’m not mad about it. But let me just tell you how I do it work front studio. So studio is our in-house creative team. We’ve had a little bit of change recently and I’ve actually am now bucketing my content and content strategy teams underneath this umbrella. So before there was just copyright, copywriting, which is our short form copy. So many of you in marketing and probably hopefully we have some agencies on here know about these words I’m using. So I apologize if I get a little bit talk about those terms. But excuse me, the copywriting team. So I now have copy, I have content strategy and I have long-form content that are now bucketing under my studio. So what do I do? I’ve really made this my own. I love scrum meetings. I know people hate hearing someone say they love meetings, but I do love scrumming. So I find that it reduces so much of work of having to slack people, having to ask questions, having to run around and find answers. So I have a daily stand-up. I am so rigid on my daily stand-up, except for this morning. I’m actually missing it, which is very strange for me. But I’d rather be here with you. So daily stand-up, I have that every day. It’s 15 minutes. Every morning my team knows they need to tell me what they worked on yesterday. What did they complete? What are they working on today? And what are their roadblocks? And then that gives me my list of what stakeholders do I need to get to to help my team be successful so they can focus on the work. I don’t design. I cannot, I mean I can, but I look, they won’t allow me to design because I’m not a designer. And so that’s not my lane. And so I need to allow the designers to design things. So my job is to go out and make sure that they can be successful and work with the stakeholders and say, hey, we have questions. Let’s get these answers. I do a weekly planning and prioritization. So every week I’m sitting with the team and we’re looking at what’s in the backlog and what those tasks are that may be pulled over and I make sure they have all the information they need to be successful. And then that backlog refinement. And one bullet I forgot to put was retrospectives. So I like to sit down. I actually do this at the beginning of my planning and prioritization, which is why I forgot to put it in there. I do 10 minutes with my team of, hey, how did this last week go? How are you feeling? It is a check and balance of the work that got done, yes, but I want to, I want my team to be open with me about, hey, how are things like on the team? Are we happy? It’s that morale issue that I think is such an important part of being in agile and it’s such, it’s agile is so emphasizes how important that is. And then in work front, I’m solely in Kanban. I have way too many times sensitive projects. Everything’s way too fast moving. I sometimes only have a day to get things from start to finish. So sprinting for me is really hard. You can do it. And I’ve done it on marketing teams where I had a more dedicated group where I had everything from content strategy to developers. So sprinting was a much easier thing. And I was able to plan and I didn’t have so many last minute requests. So for me, Kanban works. I’ve actually thought maybe I should try sprinting, try it out, see how it works. I think it could fail, but it might be kind of fun to try. And that’s a really cool thing about agile. Fail fast, try it, fail, write down what happened, go back to what you need, we’re doing, or try something different. What would you like to add, Melissa? No, that’s great. I think that the combination, like understanding the why of each of the elements of agile is really important so that you can choose what works for you. Right? So don’t just do a ceremony or a practice because agile says so understand the why behind those things and then leverage that. Right? So the standups are for like, very fast feedback and very fast response to blockers and things like that. And also making sure that you’re aligned to the highest value things, etc. Right? So as long as you talk through as a team, why you’re doing some of these things, then you’ll be able to stay focused on the benefits that they’re going to give to you.

Great. So I just wanted to show you my board. It’s a mess right now. Like I said, I’ve been out and dealing with the fire. So last week, I was I took the screenshot and I had not moved everything over because I actually been on the office, but you can see this is how I operate and work front. I have a backlog, I have all my new I have things, we make columns our own. So awaiting content, we know that a lot of times stakeholders start a project and it’s, that’s really not ready to stop. And we can move that into awaiting content so that we know that it’s not anything that my team is needing to be working on things that are in progress. So what is my team working on, and then awaiting verification. So these are things this is kind of my approval, like, you know, this is what the stakeholder, they need to approve the work and that can get really long because people, people get busy and they just go, Oh, yeah, that’s great. And they grab it and they don’t necessarily say done. So that’s things that we’re working on with our stakeholders, so that I can then have it move to complete. So this is my board. This is what I work on daily and the projects that we’re constantly I’m pulling from the backlog and assigning to the team and then it gets moved into the active Kanban board. And I’m able to just keep pulling it over and it makes it really easy because it’s all broken up. And I have stakeholders that assign big work, they do assign big things. And I’ll break up the tasks and say, you know, that that actually needs to be three different tasks. And so I’ll break that up and make that into smaller cast or ask them to do it if they have tried. But a lot of times I’ll just do it since I’m fully aware of how it needs to be broken up. Anything you want to add most to that? Okay, I think we’re pretty good at time. That was what I wanted to go through and discuss and I would love for us to break down into groups and talk about Agile as teams. We do have a couple questions that I think would be great to answer now. One, way back in the questions is Elizabeth asked, plan product and what were the other two? And so I feel like that was probably back in the slides where we’re talking about moving from two or like prioritizing something over the other. So I’ll see if you can dig that up. In the meantime, a couple people asked about using Agile in a marketing environment where there’s like lots of projects and lots of clients and hard deadlines and things like that. I did that. Yeah, we can talk about that now before we go into the breakout group just so that like everybody can hear a little bit about that. So I’ll just draw on some experience that I have with several different companies. So in one company, we were doing Agile at a larger scale. So we were doing Agile within teams, but then also we were applying Agile. Like some of you have been using Agile long enough, like Agile at scale, hopefully is like a term that you’re familiar with. And basically, that means like, not only are you looking at tasks or stories or things that you’re doing within, you know, a couple of weeks, but you’re looking at things that are larger, whether they could be called features, or they could be called like things of value, either within a campaign, or it might be a campaign if it’s small enough, or some sort of publication or whatever. So, so this company was an energy research firm, they had multiple, a bunch of teams, and then they had a single marketing team that was serving the rest of the organization. And we did, we did quarterly planning. So instead of doing, not instead of, as well as doing like short, sprint planning, we did quarterly planning with everybody. And it was facilitated and coordinated so that all of the teams all did planning around the same one or two days. And the marketing team did their own planning, but then they like split up, they did some divide and conquer. So they had a marketing person that the marketing person that was assigned to each of those teams, or like a point person, go be with each of those teams as they were planning their work for the quarter, and learning like, what, what’s the roadmap, what’s coming up, what is going to be hitting them later, and then bring all of that work back to the marketing teams, like everyone had different parts in the building. And, and they looked through like, okay, this is what’s coming. And this is the priority of the those overall organizational priority, and then blended all of that work together in their own backlog. So they, they maintain that connection throughout the quarter. And they also, like had organizational direction to prioritize the items within their own, like within marketing, so that they could, they could make sure they could get things done. So it’s like prioritization based on date, and based on value. So it’s not necessarily anytime you get a request that you do that request that we start to look at what are the requests and like, can we see a theme in these requests. So once you, you spend a little bit of time thinking about longer term roadmaps, and everybody’s able to do that, then you’re able to kind of like, pull out some themes and, and get ahead of that kind of work too. So that’s just like one little example. We can certainly talk more about it, but I want to stop and see if Melissa has anything else to add. Oh, yeah, I just reliving a lot of memories I’ve done, like, actually, I transitioned out an agency out and actually add agency from traditional to agile. And it was hard. I will not I will not lie, it was hard. But what you know, what I did is we looked at and we had mostly shared resources, which made it even harder. But I basically broke it up. So each agile group was the client, because I know every client is going to have different deliverables. But it really helped to break up all those big projects into those smaller tasks and looking at what needed to be prioritized first. And it really reduced the amount of cycles that we were trying to go through projects, the meetings were really different than what I had done before. I had to, you know, we still had to have a lot of kickoff calls and weren’t really eliminating a lot of that work. But it worked. I mean, it was more of just breaking the exercise of breaking everything up into smaller tasks for people to realize what needed to get done so that they could, they could do their work. So I think this was, it was hard, and it took a lot of work up front. But once we started going, once we started seeing all the teams, and we could see on the Kanban board, that actually, we were on sprint boards at that point, because we could plan a week in advance, we knew the work from the client we had, you know, we did leave a little fudge time for, you know, last minute requests, we all know clients, we all know, they’re going to swoop in on a Wednesday and say, Hey, I need, you know, to change everything. So you know, we knew that was going to happen. So we really, we built in some time to have that little wiggle room if we needed it. And if the client was quiet that week, then I was able to guess what, I was able to get more work done and pull more into my sprint. So I just did it in week sprints and made it work for me, it was really the method of building that backlog. And seeing all those tasks that need to get done to get our projects completed, and putting it into that visible board, and then watching the team moving things over, and then I could pull shared resources, and actually have them on multiple boards, like moving their projects over. So it wasn’t perfect. There were probably some things I would have changed. I probably would have the shared resources was really hard. I was really fighting to get more dedicated resources across across the agency. It’s just such an easier ballgame. When you know that you have one, you know, a designer, your designers are on that team, and they’re not trying to go across so many different clients. That’s so hard. It’s hard to schedule their time. But when I did see all those tasks, or issue, whatever you want to, you know, just what their workload was, I could easily see like, okay, they’re on three projects for this client, they’re on two projects for this client, and two projects for this client. And then how do I mix and match those to get to satisfy everybody? So it wasn’t perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but we tried some things epically failed. When I really tried to be like strict on the whole sprint thing, that felt really bad. And, you know, people weren’t happy with me, but that’s okay. Yep, big shoulders.

Let’s see. I’ve had a few questions about my certification. So I’m certified through Brain Trust. That’s the company I went through. And that was a standard company to get certifications for certified Scrum Master and advanced certified and they also have product owner and the entire track. And then I also went through, there’s also like Agile Sherpas, which I mentioned in the slides, they actually do an agile marketing certification now, which is really interesting. So definitely look into that. Andrea Freiweir, who is a co owner of the company, has a great book out now in agile marketing. I would definitely recommend that. It’s a great book. She just released it in July.

Questions that were like about the slides. There was a question like, are these tasks or issues? Yeah. So the way I have it set up is I do have a team. I have my CSS team set up. Issues, I do have issues in my backlog, but those I actually always convert over into a task. I have I do have a parent project. So the Creative Services Operational Project is my parent project. If they are just like kind of quick one off projects, if they belong in a larger project that maybe my one of my stakeholders own. So if it’s a large campaign, if they do, so all my issues come in as requests. So it’s a request queue. And then the issues come in. Other than that, my team can be assigned tasks through the projects. And usually that’s just conversations with the teams and with my stakeholders. And with me knowing it’s not the cleanest, it’s definitely still a messy and can get really crazy. And I’ve got my team being assigned to various things. And then I’ve got issues coming in. But I do convert them all over into tasks. I don’t leave them as issues in my backlog. And there’s a couple other tool questions. I don’t know if you want to answer these, but like right now or in the chat. So do you translate Kanban board into plan hours or actual hours and work front? And then is there a way to auto convert issues to tasks things? I have no idea. That’s like way beyond me. I’m, I’ve been at work front here and I was using other tools before I came over to work front. So I am not the most expert. I bet there’s way more like I see Monique on the call. I bet she’s way more expert level than I could ever be. But yeah, I see a lot of people on the call that are definitely way further along on their work front knowledge, but I’m learning. So I don’t know about that one. And then as far from me as hours, we don’t, we only do, we put estimated hours in and I don’t really meet my team. We don’t actually have to charge hours. I mean, it’s internal agency, so I’m not too super strict on that. So I use my estimated hours and I report off of that. There was also a question about why would you need standups if you use Kanban and people fill in tasks? And I would actually like pose that question back to the group. Do you all find that people fill in their tasks appropriately or do you get all the information that you need from a written task? No, I certainly don’t. And I also, I also, for me doing that, it takes away the human element. Like standup is actually a time for my team to connect. I will say during the past, like the height of the pandemic, like I needed those times with my team and they weren’t all about work. And yeah, that’s my, you know, I’m supposed to be keeping everyone focused on work, but it’s about that connection with my team. And I, it’s all about that humanistic element and I’m such an advocate for servant leadership and that humanizing work. And I think it’s so important for more and more tools are great tools help us tools get us to it, but it does not take away from that importance of connection with your team. Yeah. And I’ve always done let the tool do the work. Yep. And there’s always something that’s unsaid that that has to do with value and collaboration or like what you’re working on, right? There’s always something that’s unsaid that are like that certainly untyped and might be unsaid in the meeting until you allow space for that. And that’s the thing is that’s not a soft thing. That’s real money. That’s money right there, right? So if you’re just worried about hitting deadlines and getting the money, even there, there is a reason to do it. And so it’s just a different way of interacting with the work and then uncovering risks and issues earlier in the process. And if you become familiar and comfortable with that practice, then you are going to hit deadlines on time, you’re not going to have as many mistakes when you talk about those things. I did see the question seven about working with more than one agile. I know that at Workfront, we have so many agile teams. And they all have different backlogs. And I mean, you know, here’s the thing, those tasks, you click into the project, it’s still a waterfall, you know, it’s still just got everybody’s tasks. But it’s those tasks that I’m involved with my team’s assigned to, that I’m planning an agile way. But I see the water, I see the due dates is set by my stakeholders and the agreement that we’ve had. And so I, yes, you, I know that you can work in Workfront with multiple agile teams, and, and they all have their own different backlogs. And all those projects can roll up. I mean, I know my web team, which I don’t work on, but they’re actually sprinting. And I’m on Kanban. And we’re all working different ways that we’re all still on the same project, which I think is super cool. I think that’s the coolest thing that I actually love about Workfront is that huge, like, everyone’s working their own way on their teams. But we’re all coming together on the same project and delivering, which I think is super cool.

I don’t know if your designers are as big as introverts as mine are, but I, you can guess I do most of the talking on my daily setups, but I pull people out as much as I can. I do little songs and dances and make a complete, you know, fool of myself sometimes. And it’s totally fine. But yeah, I think some people do find standups useful and some don’t. I mean, I know I have some team members who are totally introverted and they could just do without it. They would just don’t care. But you know what too bad. I will have this connection with you. I will force it like, I mean, I’m trying to force it, but I’m, I’m, I’m, it’s, it’s important for the rest of the team. Yeah, I and I do get I see the there’s a comment about like the specialists, maybe not getting as much value out of that. And I’ve definitely seen that I get that. I think that, like, we have done some alterations where like, like, super specialized people may only come to stand up a few times a week instead of every single day or things like that. But also, I found over time that the specialists actually have different and that if they can stay engaged and kind of commit to being a part of the process, then at some point that that’s going to pay off. It’s kind of like you have to figure it out for for yourselves. I do want to share like one other kind of transformation story at the last organization I was working with. I was on the product marketing team. I was on the product marketing team and the product management team. So I like kind of split duties and, and the, as the marketing team adopted agile, what we started to do was we had a single board, so not at the story level, but up at the higher like epic level, we had the same board for product as we did for marketing. And we had a swim lane so that all of our epics were like, are all of our bigger pieces were on the same board and we could see them together. And then we actually had a swim lane up at the top, which was kind of like high level goals. And so this directed our priority across all of the teams together. And so we blended together the kind of strategy and goals for product and marketing. And this was brand and product marketing. Because if brand and product marketing aren’t connecting, then then you’re also like you might be have sending your customers to completely different messages. So high level, like what are these? What are these strategies? And how are we implementing them both through product and through marketing, and then having a kind of a quarterly conversation like, okay, do all of these features like looking at each other’s boards and being able to just have like that again, that kind of future look into what the work is, and then moving out to your own boards, the teams would move out to their own boards to work on stories and things like that. So that actually started to help us align everyone with organizational strategy. So it wasn’t that organizational strategy was sitting in this column, but like what were our high level items that were starting to reflect the organizational strategy. And that’s where business agility starts to come in is that you’re actually making connection with with the overall value of the company and and and then you can pull out themes again, you can pull out themes and like, have that be work that comes in the future on another roadmap. And so I think I think it’s time for us to transition. Yeah, I think it is. I think. Thank you both Melissa is very helpful. And I’m glad that we were able to answer so many questions in the chat. Please bring those questions to both the breakout rooms. I know we’re going to be starting with how are you approaching agility at your organization, I think we’re already starting to dive in.